Gaming Signal: Do You Enjoy The Grind In Your MMO?

Do You Enjoy The Grind In Your MMO?

Almost all MMOs have a grind of one type or another, and most of us dread the time where the grind overtakes the game, then sucks the fun out of it. WOW Insider has the solution: listen to an audio book while grinding!

This may very well be a good idea, but the underlying assumption here is the MMO in question isn't fun enough, isn't compelling enough to keep your attention so you have to find something else to do while 'playing' the game. I realize Kevin likes to watch DVDs while playing, and that's just another version of Insider's idea, although watching a DVD takes more attention than listening to a book. Still, if the game you are playing is made more...palatable by doing something else concurrently, just how much fun is the game really?

This is a big problem I have with MMOs. At lower levels, the grind is non-existent to hardly there, but at some point it will rear its ugly head and make you wonder just why you're killing the 1000th 'rat' to find it's magic spleen. The minute I think that doing something else while playing is appealing, it's time to stop. Can you imagine doing this with a game like Oblivion?

I guess I just don't 'get' this mindset.

"Grinding" - I am so familiar with this element of MMOs, but how different is it from any game that has a levelling system. You do "grind" in Oblivion, but it is grinding as part of a narrative. You kill X number of critters for experience to level up. It is sometimes considered a main tenet of RPG type of games. There has been some backlash of late regarding this style of gaming. I wonder if its a question of presentation.

I will admit that the current crop of MMOs do not necessarily improve the "grind grind til you are the right level to raid" mentality. Now I will say that there is the same deal going on in BF2142 since it really also has similiar play style of grinding until you get to the next level of experience. My hope is that some game will attempt to break the mold, but I just don't see it on the horizon. WOW is too successful and demonstrates that you can build a game that makes "grinding" at least something that does not feel like a chore.

Posted by Tim on Tuesday November 13, 2007 at 10:57 PM

Doesn't the fact that calling it "grinding" imply that it's not something you would enjoy doing? Otherwise, wouldn't you simply call it "playing?"

I grind daily quests because I have to -- how else can I collect 5000g to buy my epic riding skill for my epic flyers? Or to save enough gold to pay 200g for each 5-man pick-up group (4 people at 50g each) now that none of my friends play the game anymore? I guess I can always buy gold but 5 days of daily two-hours of grinds is way better than supporting those damn Chinese gold farmers -- don't you think?

That said, WoWInsider.com used to be the place to go to for really good tips and useful "inside" information. Lately, it's devolved into a collection of useless crap that caters to all the indigents out there who must have absolutely nothing better to do than to debate the minutiae of every little game change while waiting with bated breath for the 2.3 patch and the who-knows-when-or-if-it-will-ever-be-released WotLK expansion while, at the same time, engaging in long discourse of wishful thinking for features that are either impractical or impossible for the cadre of not-nearly-as-elite Blizzard developers.

Posted by PeterY on Tuesday November 13, 2007 at 11:05 PM

If I don't have a TV on while I am playing a MMO I am an unhappy boy.

I HATE the grind.

I wonder is the FPS quality of Tabula Rasa will mitigate the grind? I haven't played enough to tell yet.

Posted by tditto on Wednesday November 14, 2007 at 10:08 AM

I agree with Peter - the definition of 'grind' is something that isn't fun. WoW has tried to do its best to give you things to do that aren't strictly a grind but they haven't succeeded in my opinion. The 'daily quests' began to be work - things you did before you started to 'play'. Blech. I guess it is better than sitting around killing mobs for hours, but not by that much.

And then that 'play' began to be running Kara over and over again, night after night. The times spent learning it was fun, and the first time finishing it was great, but then it became a chore. Blech.

I found myself listening to podcasts and the radio or watching TV during WoW sessions - a sign that I needed something else to occupy my time.

Luckily, we're only a few short days from Mass Effect and by the time I get back from India Crysis will be out and I will have a lot of fun this winter!!

Posted by scottsh on Wednesday November 14, 2007 at 11:13 PM

I guess I am confused about the definition of success in your case Scott - I know it took you a while to get to the point where you "playing through Kara" every night. At that point, the game was grinding, but prior to that point it was not. That is my point and I don't think WOW has failed. It did grow old for us, but it did take a while to reach that point. Furthermore, I would say that it is one of the few games that I have left and returned to. It speaks very well about an improvement over the traditional grind found in EQ - which was a grind but one I engaged in to see more of the game....

Posted by Tim on Thursday November 15, 2007 at 10:51 AM

I think Scott's point is that it's a very fine line between grinding and playing; or rather, grinding vs. "practicing." Once you reach the goal, the return diminishes so we look for the next challenge. Games like WoW, unfortunately, can't always keep up with that apetite of the gamers.

Other a different note, mmmmm... "Mass Effects" with its human-alien lesbianic sex scene(s?)... If it's getting banned in countries (one confirmed, so far), it's reason enough to get it!!

Posted by PeterY on Friday November 16, 2007 at 7:56 AM

I did understand that, and I was also stating that for WOW that time where the game became less fun was not immediate. It was not something that happened every week while you attempted to get the next level. It occurred after many months of game play. I can think of very few games that have that type of longevity. I am not defending the grind nor am I saying it is a good thing. What I am saying is that up until this point, we were all very happy with the experience. So calling the game a failure is not really appropriate since it did stave off that grinding element for a while.

Posted by Tim on Friday November 16, 2007 at 9:01 AM

We are agreeing Tim - by saying WoW's grinding isn't fun I did not mean that the non-grinding parts weren't a lot of fun. They were 10x better than Everquest. I had more fun with WoW over a longer period of time than probably any other game I had played (with Baldur's Gate 2 coming in a close second.) I don't think WoW is a failure by any means - it is a wild success in every way except the end.

And ultimately, maybe the problem with these games is that it isn't always obvious where the end is for me. I kept playing WoW at level 60 because there seemed to be lots of fun things to do even though there weren't too many solo opportunities.

After playing on a private server, I can say that I found it fun to solo instances. If that were possible in Blizzards version, I think they might have a reasonably fun thing to do well after you were 70. It would take some balancing work, but I think the payoff might be worth it.

Playing Diablo 2 again and Hellgate: London has made me realize that besides experience points, WoW needs to significantly increase the loot rewards in WoW. More loot = better rewards = better game. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that boss mobs should drop one rare/epic for every party member, not 1 per that the group has to fight over.

Posted by scottsh on Friday November 16, 2007 at 7:54 PM

That is an interesting idea Scott. I would love to see that happen. I mean the game really is about loot, and how you look. I wonder if the question is really time? I mean money is pretty easy to obtain and cannot be a concern. I just wonder if they are just maintaining that element of MMOs that have existed since EQ. If anything maybe, HGL will help drive that type of itemization....

Posted by Tim on Friday November 16, 2007 at 10:52 PM

As much as I would love to have one rare/epic piece per party member, it just won't happen. Also, think about it, the piece's epic-ness is directly proportional to its rareness. If everyone gets an epic at the end of the run, everyone will be walking around in epics and the epics will lose their "luster," so to speak.

I just don't see any way around it. From Blizzard's standpoint (I can't believe I'm defending them), it would be impossible to keep up to constantly generating more epics and more powerful gear because their dungeons will need to continue to scale or else, they'll be too easy. So let's say, the runs automatically scales, well, then the epic gear "loses their power" because the dungeons got harder to compensate for the uber gear. The player would've had the same experience with less powerful gear in a less difficult version of the dungeon.

The only real way for them to keep everything fresh, is to not just scale the difficulty using mobs with more hitpoints but literally change the strategy of the mobs. Maybe that's what they should do, imprint all the mobs in a dungeon with a variety of strategies; and each time, it uses a different combination. /shrug.

Posted by PeterY on Friday November 23, 2007 at 9:34 PM